Simple sign up problems

Jan Fischer Bachman · May 2011

We created a simple e-mail sign up form that only asks for e-mail address. We have had multiple problems getting it to do what we want it to do. The first was Convio's weird opt-in choices, but we have figured that out. (Obviously if someone is signing up for e-mail, they are opting in! So I wish Convio would not insist on including the opt-in box).

Here's our current problem:

We offer a list of all of our e-mail publications in the form of interests. When someone does not select a publication, Convio considers this an opt-out. HOWEVER, some people already get a publication and just want to add another one. Logically, they might not check the box - but they DON'T want to be opted out!

Is there a way to let (non-logged-in) users select interests but avoid Convio opting them out of everything they don't select? They will still not receive unwanted publications since all except two are opt-in only.

Thanks for any help!

Jan

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Wanted to update this post with a link to the document I uploaded to the community today: http://community.customer.convio.com/docs/DOC-3255

Hi Jan,

Are you just trying to embed a survey as an email capture form? You can configure a survey to not display the check box. One warning though, if someone has opted out of email and they come back in to sign up for email with the same email address and fill out the form without the check box then the system will not opt them back in. But I normally don't present the check box since this is probably not a frequent issue.

If you are just embedding a survey, I actually recommend you use the code below. It allows you to not display a check box but will always opt people in to receive email:

EMAIL ONLY

<form method="POST" action="http://support.spca.bc.ca/site/Survey"><input type="hidden" name="cons_info_component" id="cons_info_component" value="t" /><input type="hidden" name="SURVEY_ID" id="SURVEY_ID" value="2620" /><input type="text" name="cons_email" id="cons_email" value="Email Address" size="20" maxlength="255" onfocus="if(this.value == 'Email Address'){this.value='';}" onblur="if(this.value == ''){this.value='Email Address';}" /><span style="display:none"><input type="text" name="denySubmit" id="denySubmit" value="" alt="This field is used to prevent form submission by scripts." />Please leave this field empty</span><input type="submit" name="ACTION_SUBMIT_SURVEY_RESPONSE" id="ACTION_SUBMIT_SURVEY_RESPONSE" value="" class="signupFormSubmit" /></form>

Let me know if you'd like a code snippet for a FIRST/LAST/EMAIL form.

I definitely understand your concern about the interest opt-in dilema. I actually thought this was something that was fixed but I just tested it and it's not. I have contacted our product team to get their response to this issue. I will share that with you as soon as I hear from them.

Kent

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Kent Gilliam:
Wanted to update this post with a link to the document I uploaded to the community today: http://community.customer.convio.com/docs/DOC-3255

Hi Jan,

Are you just trying to embed a survey as an email capture form? You can configure a survey to not display the check box. One warning though, if someone has opted out of email and they come back in to sign up for email with the same email address and fill out the form without the check box then the system will not opt them back in. But I normally don't present the check box since this is probably not a frequent issue.

If you are just embedding a survey, I actually recommend you use the code below. It allows you to not display a check box but will always opt people in to receive email:

EMAIL ONLY

<form method="POST" action="http://support.spca.bc.ca/site/Survey"><input type="hidden" name="cons_info_component" id="cons_info_component" value="t" /><input type="hidden" name="SURVEY_ID" id="SURVEY_ID" value="2620" /><input type="text" name="cons_email" id="cons_email" value="Email Address" size="20" maxlength="255" onfocus="if(this.value == 'Email Address'){this.value='';}" onblur="if(this.value == ''){this.value='Email Address';}" /><span style="display:none"><input type="text" name="denySubmit" id="denySubmit" value="" alt="This field is used to prevent form submission by scripts." />Please leave this field empty</span><input type="submit" name="ACTION_SUBMIT_SURVEY_RESPONSE" id="ACTION_SUBMIT_SURVEY_RESPONSE" value="" class="signupFormSubmit" /></form>

Let me know if you'd like a code snippet for a FIRST/LAST/EMAIL form.

I definitely understand your concern about the interest opt-in dilema. I actually thought this was something that was fixed but I just tested it and it's not. I have contacted our product team to get their response to this issue. I will share that with you as soon as I hear from them.

Kent

"...if someone has opted out of email and they come back in to sign up for email with the same email address and fill out the form without the check box then the system will not opt them back in."

Won't this actually create a duplicate record? I think you should be able to merge them and elect to retain the new opt-in status, no?

Regards, Brian

Jan Fischer Bachman · May 2011

Kent Gilliam:
Wanted to update this post with a link to the document I uploaded to the community today: http://community.customer.convio.com/docs/DOC-3255

Hi Jan,

Are you just trying to embed a survey as an email capture form? You can configure a survey to not display the check box. One warning though, if someone has opted out of email and they come back in to sign up for email with the same email address and fill out the form without the check box then the system will not opt them back in. But I normally don't present the check box since this is probably not a frequent issue.

If you are just embedding a survey, I actually recommend you use the code below. It allows you to not display a check box but will always opt people in to receive email:

EMAIL ONLY

<form method="POST" action="http://support.spca.bc.ca/site/Survey"><input type="hidden" name="cons_info_component" id="cons_info_component" value="t" /><input type="hidden" name="SURVEY_ID" id="SURVEY_ID" value="2620" /><input type="text" name="cons_email" id="cons_email" value="Email Address" size="20" maxlength="255" onfocus="if(this.value == 'Email Address'){this.value='';}" onblur="if(this.value == ''){this.value='Email Address';}" /><span style="display:none"><input type="text" name="denySubmit" id="denySubmit" value="" alt="This field is used to prevent form submission by scripts." />Please leave this field empty</span><input type="submit" name="ACTION_SUBMIT_SURVEY_RESPONSE" id="ACTION_SUBMIT_SURVEY_RESPONSE" value="" class="signupFormSubmit" /></form>

Let me know if you'd like a code snippet for a FIRST/LAST/EMAIL form.

I definitely understand your concern about the interest opt-in dilema. I actually thought this was something that was fixed but I just tested it and it's not. I have contacted our product team to get their response to this issue. I will share that with you as soon as I hear from them.

Kent

Thank you! I will try this code. Please let me know regarding the interests thing, as it is causing us problems! We want to be able to have people easily sign up, but with more than 10 different publications, most need to be based on an opt-in -- without necessarily opting OUT of things they are actually "neutral" about.

I appreciate your prompt response!

Jan

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Brian Mucha:
"...if someone has opted out of email and they come back in to sign up for email with the same email address and fill out the form without the check box then the system will not opt them back in."

Won't this actually create a duplicate record? I think you should be able to merge them and elect to retain the new opt-in status, no?

Regards, Brian

No, because the system still sees the email as being one of an active constituent. It will add transactions, interactions and interests to the record just like it normally does. The person didn't ask to not have a record, just not to receive email. So the opt-in is configured so that a check box is required as part of the form to opt people back in. I found this out while working with a client on their TeamRaiser event. Their TR registration form was set to not display the check box. When we looked at people who had signed up for that year we were amazed at the number who were not opted in to receive email. We all know there are a lot of opt-outs after an event but we thought by them registering the following year it would opt them in. We discovered this wasn't the case. So I now tell every TR client to include the check box in their TR reg form.

Kent

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Kent Gilliam:
No, because the system still sees the email as being one of an active constituent. It will add transactions, interactions and interests to the record just like it normally does. The person didn't ask to not have a record, just not to receive email. So the opt-in is configured so that a check box is required as part of the form to opt people back in. I found this out while working with a client on their TeamRaiser event. Their TR registration form was set to not display the check box. When we looked at people who had signed up for that year we were amazed at the number who were not opted in to receive email. We all know there are a lot of opt-outs after an event but we thought by them registering the following year it would opt them in. We discovered this wasn't the case. So I now tell every TR client to include the check box in their TR reg form.

Kent

Interesting.

Is this opt-out bug a new issue? I don't recall this happening when I built our registration survey.

Regards, Brian

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Brian Mucha:
Interesting.

Is this opt-out bug a new issue? I don't recall this happening when I built our registration survey.

Regards, Brian

It's not a "bug" at all. It is just the way our product managers decided to configure it. We are discussing changing it back since there have been some voiced concerns.

Kent

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Kent Gilliam:
It's not a "bug" at all. It is just the way our product managers decided to configure it. We are discussing changing it back since there have been some voiced concerns.

Kent

So the implications are that you cannot send an email to both an interest and an additional group, right? Because some of those group members might accidentally be in the interest opt-outs because they opted IN to some other group via the survey?

Regards, Brian

Jan Fischer Bachman · May 2011

Brian Mucha:
So the implications are that you cannot send an email to both an interest and an additional group, right? Because some of those group members might accidentally be in the interest opt-outs because they opted IN to some other group via the survey?

Regards, Brian

Brian, yes, that is the issue. If someone opts IN to, say, Youth and Young Adults, they have opted out of everything else, even if they already get one of the other newsletters based on interests. This is not very functional. If someone logs in, they can opt-in without opting out of everything else automatically, but how many people are going to log in? (a tiny fraction of those using a simple sign-up).

Jan

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Brian Mucha:
So the implications are that you cannot send an email to both an interest and an additional group, right? Because some of those group members might accidentally be in the interest opt-outs because they opted IN to some other group via the survey?

Regards, Brian

Brian,

Here is the scenario:

Example: I am in the “enews” and “emergency update” interest opt-in. I complete a form that presents these two interests AND “planned giving”. I know that I’m already in the “enews” and “emergency update” so I only choose the “planned giving” opt-in and I submit my form. This opts me into the “planned giving” interest but opts me out of the other two because I didn’t choose them again.

It won't change these opt-ins if you don't provide them as options on other forms but if someone goes through your sign-up process and chooses their interests and then later goes through the form again because they think it will log them in and they don't choose the interests again it will opt them out.

I'm discussing with the product team to see what their view on this is. I'll update here as soon as I hear back.

Kent

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Jan Fischer Bachman:
Brian, yes, that is the issue. If someone opts IN to, say, Youth and Young Adults, they have opted out of everything else, even if they already get one of the other newsletters based on interests. This is not very functional. If someone logs in, they can opt-in without opting out of everything else automatically, but how many people are going to log in? (a tiny fraction of those using a simple sign-up).

Jan

Ouch. That is a problem for what we are planning as well. And you are stuck with all those unintentional opt-outs. How will you ever clean that up?

Kent, do you think this functionality is changable on a per-client basis via a Convio SDP?

As an aside, do you guys happen to know the behavior of the opt-out page with mixed targets? I think if you address to an interest, then the opt-out page offers you the interests checkboxes on the opt-out page. But if you send to a simple group, then they just get a one-click opt-out. What if you send to and interest AND a group? Does the opt-out page depend on how you got the email, or is the entire email set to one-click opt-out?

Regards, Brian

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Brian Mucha:
Ouch. That is a problem for what we are planning as well. And you are stuck with all those unintentional opt-outs. How will you ever clean that up?

Kent, do you think this functionality is changable on a per-client basis via a Convio SDP?

As an aside, do you guys happen to know the behavior of the opt-out page with mixed targets? I think if you address to an interest, then the opt-out page offers you the interests checkboxes on the opt-out page. But if you send to a simple group, then they just get a one-click opt-out. What if you send to and interest AND a group? Does the opt-out page depend on how you got the email, or is the entire email set to one-click opt-out?

Regards, Brian

This is not an SDP configuration. It is a platform configuration that can't be changed.

I've never actually tested your opt-out scenario but I'm 99% confident that it doesn't matter if they are in a group or an interest-opt in, it will add both to the opt-out group. This could easily be tested to verify. I'll try to test it this afternoon.

Kent

Jan Fischer Bachman · May 2011

Kent Gilliam:
Brian,

Here is the scenario:

Example: I am in the “enews” and “emergency update” interest opt-in. I complete a form that presents these two interests AND “planned giving”. I know that I’m already in the “enews” and “emergency update” so I only choose the “planned giving” opt-in and I submit my form. This opts me into the “planned giving” interest but opts me out of the other two because I didn’t choose them again.

It won't change these opt-ins if you don't provide them as options on other forms but if someone goes through your sign-up process and chooses their interests and then later goes through the form again because they think it will log them in and they don't choose the interests again it will opt them out.

I'm discussing with the product team to see what their view on this is. I'll update here as soon as I hear back.

Kent

I just found one of these while merging duplicates today. Constituent opted in TWICE previously for a specific newsletter. Last week signed up for another one and by not checking the newsletter that she's signed up for twice, she is now opted out of it! I actually don't have time to fix this right now, so will just leave the two profiles temporarily since that way she will get all the newsletters she wants. But I really hope Convio rethinks this. Forcing people to log in is not a good solution for us. I hate to have to pull the simple sign up since it is bringing in a steady stream of people who actually WANT to hear from us; however, it is hurting most those with long-standing profiles (our most faithful supporters).

All the best,

Jan

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Jan Fischer Bachman:
I just found one of these while merging duplicates today. Constituent opted in TWICE previously for a specific newsletter. Last week signed up for another one and by not checking the newsletter that she's signed up for twice, she is now opted out of it! I actually don't have time to fix this right now, so will just leave the two profiles temporarily since that way she will get all the newsletters she wants. But I really hope Convio rethinks this. Forcing people to log in is not a good solution for us. I hate to have to pull the simple sign up since it is bringing in a steady stream of people who actually WANT to hear from us; however, it is hurting most those with long-standing profiles (our most faithful supporters).

All the best,

Jan

Actually it doesn't matter if the person is logged in or not. It will still function the same. When it sees the email address the system handles the interaction almost as if they were logged in. I have contacted your AM to let her know of your concern. The product manager for this operation is currently out of the office but I have invited him and others to view your thread and provide comments.

Kent

Shana Masterson · May 2011

Kent Gilliam:
Actually it doesn't matter if the person is logged in or not. It will still function the same. When it sees the email address the system handles the interaction almost as if they were logged in. I have contacted your AM to let her know of your concern. The product manager for this operation is currently out of the office but I have invited him and others to view your thread and provide comments.

Kent

Kent, Brian, and Jan,

We just recently logged a case on this very issue. Has this always been true or is this a more recent development? I can't believe more people aren't complaining about this. Yes, it is a best practice to ask people what they are interested in so we can send them what is relevant to them, but if the interest form functions as described, then it is completely defeating what we are trying to achieve. It was my understanding that people were only opted out if they selected to opt out of that interest after clicking unsubscribe from an email, or if they unchecked a previously checked interest in their profile. When recently looking at my opt out groups, I was astonished.

Now I'm trying to figure out if we stop using the opt outs in the exclusion group for messages that don't exclusively include the opt in group for the audinece. And that is a horrible practice too, because some of the people in the opt out group actually did want to opt out. How are you all going to handle this?

Relatedly, if I do not display a site wide opt in, and display one of my seven interest categories, what would that mean? That they aren't opted in at all because the site wide opt in isn't listed? That they are opted in to that category if they check it, but then opted out of the other six?

Sorry for the many questions, but I would appreciate your time.

Thanks,

Shana

--

Shana Masterson

Lead Manager, Online Campaigns

National Brain Tumor Society

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Shana Masterson:
Kent, Brian, and Jan,

We just recently logged a case on this very issue. Has this always been true or is this a more recent development? I can't believe more people aren't complaining about this. Yes, it is a best practice to ask people what they are interested in so we can send them what is relevant to them, but if the interest form functions as described, then it is completely defeating what we are trying to achieve. It was my understanding that people were only opted out if they selected to opt out of that interest after clicking unsubscribe from an email, or if they unchecked a previously checked interest in their profile. When recently looking at my opt out groups, I was astonished.

Now I'm trying to figure out if we stop using the opt outs in the exclusion group for messages that don't exclusively include the opt in group for the audinece. And that is a horrible practice too, because some of the people in the opt out group actually did want to opt out. How are you all going to handle this?

Relatedly, if I do not display a site wide opt in, and display one of my seven interest categories, what would that mean? That they aren't opted in at all because the site wide opt in isn't listed? That they are opted in to that category if they check it, but then opted out of the other six?

Sorry for the many questions, but I would appreciate your time.

Thanks,

Shana

--

Shana Masterson

Lead Manager, Online Campaigns

National Brain Tumor Society

"It was my understanding that people were only opted out if they selected to opt out of that interest after clicking unsubscribe from an email, or if they unchecked a previously checked interest in their profile."

That was my impression all along as well. The idea that this was intentional functionality by the product managers is pretty incredible. I don't see any way this can be anything but damaging.

"How are you all going to handle this?"

Good question. I can't think of any way to distinguish intentional opt-outs from these unintentional ones. That means the damage done to the housefile is irreverable. Fortunately, we delayed our migration to Convio email. I think I can safely say that if this happened to our housefile people here would hit the roof.

I'm watching this topic with interest. I wonder how long this has been happening and how big of an issue it will turn into.

Regards, Brian

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Brian Mucha:
"It was my understanding that people were only opted out if they selected to opt out of that interest after clicking unsubscribe from an email, or if they unchecked a previously checked interest in their profile."

That was my impression all along as well. The idea that this was intentional functionality by the product managers is pretty incredible. I don't see any way this can be anything but damaging.

"How are you all going to handle this?"

Good question. I can't think of any way to distinguish intentional opt-outs from these unintentional ones. That means the damage done to the housefile is irreverable. Fortunately, we delayed our migration to Convio email. I think I can safely say that if this happened to our housefile people here would hit the roof.

I'm watching this topic with interest. I wonder how long this has been happening and how big of an issue it will turn into.

Regards, Brian

How many responses do you show for that sign-up survey? That should give you a scale of the worst case for how many times this has happened.

Hey, I'll bet the survey results could be used to fix this.

We could use those results to see who was affected, and which interests they might have been accidentally opted-out of.

Problem is that they could have already been intentionally opted-out, so you can't assume to just take them back out of that group. You would have to confirm that they didn't purposfully opt-out, are normal opt-outs logged some way? An interaction?

If there isn't a log, then your choice is if you should undo the opt-out and risk sending them something unwanted.

Regards, Brian

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Shana Masterson:
Kent, Brian, and Jan,

We just recently logged a case on this very issue. Has this always been true or is this a more recent development? I can't believe more people aren't complaining about this. Yes, it is a best practice to ask people what they are interested in so we can send them what is relevant to them, but if the interest form functions as described, then it is completely defeating what we are trying to achieve. It was my understanding that people were only opted out if they selected to opt out of that interest after clicking unsubscribe from an email, or if they unchecked a previously checked interest in their profile. When recently looking at my opt out groups, I was astonished.

Now I'm trying to figure out if we stop using the opt outs in the exclusion group for messages that don't exclusively include the opt in group for the audinece. And that is a horrible practice too, because some of the people in the opt out group actually did want to opt out. How are you all going to handle this?

Relatedly, if I do not display a site wide opt in, and display one of my seven interest categories, what would that mean? That they aren't opted in at all because the site wide opt in isn't listed? That they are opted in to that category if they check it, but then opted out of the other six?

Sorry for the many questions, but I would appreciate your time.

Thanks,

Shana

--

Shana Masterson

Lead Manager, Online Campaigns

National Brain Tumor Society

I have been chatting with the product team about this and trying to find out when a fix will be put in place. When I tested this last week I completed a survey with interest opt-ins. I chose all of them and submitted the form. I was opted in to all of them. Then I completed the form again and didn't choose two of the interests and I submitted the form. It kept me opted into the once I left checked but I wasn't opted into the two that I didn't mess with. To be clear, it did not put me in the "opt-out" group. It just didn't have me in the "opt-in" group.

I would be curious to know how you are doing putting "opt-out" members in your suppression list. I've had this issue: I sent an email to a target group consisting of four opt-in groups. A constituent was opted into three of them but because he was opted out of one he didn't receive the information he wanted (the top of the other three interests).

I basically kept away from using opt-out groups in my suppressions unless the email was being sent to just one specific opt-in group.

I'm working on getting an answer for this. Stay tuned.

Kent

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Kent Gilliam:
I have been chatting with the product team about this and trying to find out when a fix will be put in place. When I tested this last week I completed a survey with interest opt-ins. I chose all of them and submitted the form. I was opted in to all of them. Then I completed the form again and didn't choose two of the interests and I submitted the form. It kept me opted into the once I left checked but I wasn't opted into the two that I didn't mess with. To be clear, it did not put me in the "opt-out" group. It just didn't have me in the "opt-in" group.

I would be curious to know how you are doing putting "opt-out" members in your suppression list. I've had this issue: I sent an email to a target group consisting of four opt-in groups. A constituent was opted into three of them but because he was opted out of one he didn't receive the information he wanted (the top of the other three interests).

I basically kept away from using opt-out groups in my suppressions unless the email was being sent to just one specific opt-in group.

I'm working on getting an answer for this. Stay tuned.

Kent

"It just didn't have me in the "opt-in" group."

So it actually removed you from the opt-in group for those two unchecked choices, undoing the first pass at that form? So at least they still have a shot at getting the email if the interest is augmented with a regular group in the target list.

Regards, B

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Brian Mucha:
"It just didn't have me in the "opt-in" group."

So it actually removed you from the opt-in group for those two unchecked choices, undoing the first pass at that form? So at least they still have a shot at getting the email if the interest is augmented with a regular group in the target list.

Regards, B

Correct. It did not put me in the "opt-out" group for an interest.

Jan Fischer Bachman · May 2011

Kent Gilliam:
I have been chatting with the product team about this and trying to find out when a fix will be put in place. When I tested this last week I completed a survey with interest opt-ins. I chose all of them and submitted the form. I was opted in to all of them. Then I completed the form again and didn't choose two of the interests and I submitted the form. It kept me opted into the once I left checked but I wasn't opted into the two that I didn't mess with. To be clear, it did not put me in the "opt-out" group. It just didn't have me in the "opt-in" group.

I would be curious to know how you are doing putting "opt-out" members in your suppression list. I've had this issue: I sent an email to a target group consisting of four opt-in groups. A constituent was opted into three of them but because he was opted out of one he didn't receive the information he wanted (the top of the other three interests).

I basically kept away from using opt-out groups in my suppressions unless the email was being sent to just one specific opt-in group.

I'm working on getting an answer for this. Stay tuned.

Kent

This made me curious to test our simple sign up again, since you were not opted out by not checking a box.

I used a different e-mail address and signed up for some (not all) of the interests. I was opted-out of all that I did not check.

I went back and signed up again with different interests. We allow more than one profile per e-mail address (I don't like this policy but it was decided upon since many couples and family members share e-mail addresses. Yes, it causes problems.) Therefore, this created a new profile with a different set of opt-in and opt-outs.

I merged the two profiles, and, as we have discovered happens, it kept the opt-in and opt-outs from the master record.

We have learned that we have to be VERY CAREFUL when merging duplicates (which occur daily) because of this.

So I could not re-create the lack of opt-outs, but that is a fault of how we use the system. However, in our system, anyone who signs up for things IS opted-out of any unchecked boxes.

Note that it is extra time-consuming to take people out of opt-out groups, as far as I can tell. You can remove people from some groups right in their profiles, but to remove opt-outs you have to go to the opt-out group. (I'd love to hear if this is not right!)

It is true that you can use the survey results to identify people who have inadvertently opted-out of interests.

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Brian Mucha:
"It just didn't have me in the "opt-in" group."

So it actually removed you from the opt-in group for those two unchecked choices, undoing the first pass at that form? So at least they still have a shot at getting the email if the interest is augmented with a regular group in the target list.

Regards, B

"I've had this issue: I sent an email to a target group consisting of four opt-in groups. A constituent was opted into three of them but because he was opted out of one he didn't receive the information he wanted (the top of the other three interests)."

That's exactly what I would expect to happen. Opting-out means I never want anything addressed to this list.

I think that confusion is the difference between not being opted-in and being opted-out, and the fact that the opt-out part is invisible to the constituent. In practice, there are sort of three states to be in. Always Send Me This, Never Send Me This, or NEUTRAL. I think most people would assume that unchecking an interest is the same as never checking it - it should make you neutral.

BUT if they actually unsubscribe, that is a different story.

Think about regular email groups at work. I'm part of the IT Distribution List. Therefore I get everything sent to that list. If I remove myself from that list, they can still CC me. But in Convio, removing yourself from an interest is like blacklisting that sender. Even if you are CCed you do not get the email.

The interest list should show...

Some Interest (o) Interested ( ) Not interested ( ) Never Send

Some Interest ( ) Interested (o) Not interested ( ) Never Send

Some Interest ( ) Interested ( ) Not interested (o) Never Send

...or perhaps...

Some Interest Interested Never Send

Regards, B

PS - Sorry, got off topic a bit.

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Jan Fischer Bachman:
This made me curious to test our simple sign up again, since you were not opted out by not checking a box.

I used a different e-mail address and signed up for some (not all) of the interests. I was opted-out of all that I did not check.

I went back and signed up again with different interests. We allow more than one profile per e-mail address (I don't like this policy but it was decided upon since many couples and family members share e-mail addresses. Yes, it causes problems.) Therefore, this created a new profile with a different set of opt-in and opt-outs.

I merged the two profiles, and, as we have discovered happens, it kept the opt-in and opt-outs from the master record.

We have learned that we have to be VERY CAREFUL when merging duplicates (which occur daily) because of this.

So I could not re-create the lack of opt-outs, but that is a fault of how we use the system. However, in our system, anyone who signs up for things IS opted-out of any unchecked boxes.

Note that it is extra time-consuming to take people out of opt-out groups, as far as I can tell. You can remove people from some groups right in their profiles, but to remove opt-outs you have to go to the opt-out group. (I'd love to hear if this is not right!)

It is true that you can use the survey results to identify people who have inadvertently opted-out of interests.

"Therefore, this created a new profile with a different set of opt-in and opt-outs."

That is what I thought would happen in post 2 of this thread. (We allow duplicates too. Fun, isn't it?)

Regards, B

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Brian Mucha:
"I've had this issue: I sent an email to a target group consisting of four opt-in groups. A constituent was opted into three of them but because he was opted out of one he didn't receive the information he wanted (the top of the other three interests)."

That's exactly what I would expect to happen. Opting-out means I never want anything addressed to this list.

I think that confusion is the difference between not being opted-in and being opted-out, and the fact that the opt-out part is invisible to the constituent. In practice, there are sort of three states to be in. Always Send Me This, Never Send Me This, or NEUTRAL. I think most people would assume that unchecking an interest is the same as never checking it - it should make you neutral.

BUT if they actually unsubscribe, that is a different story.

Think about regular email groups at work. I'm part of the IT Distribution List. Therefore I get everything sent to that list. If I remove myself from that list, they can still CC me. But in Convio, removing yourself from an interest is like blacklisting that sender. Even if you are CCed you do not get the email.

The interest list should show...

Some Interest                        (o) Interested   ( ) Not interested   ( ) Never Send

Some Interest                        ( ) Interested   (o) Not interested   ( ) Never Send

Some Interest                        ( ) Interested   ( ) Not interested   (o) Never Send

...or perhaps...

Some Interest                        Interested   Never Send

Some Interest                        Interested   Never Send

Some Interest                        Interested   Never Send

Regards, B

PS - Sorry, got off topic a bit.

This is really a scenario problem. Some clients may never have this scenario but here is the specifics:

Constituent was in the "Advocacy News Opt-in" grop along with a couple of other interests groups but they were also in the "Cruelty Response Opt-out" group because the images were too graphic.

The email was about legislation that would impact the organizations ability to file charges against animal abusers. So the organization knew this would be important to their advocacy constituents AND their Cruelty Response constituents so they created an email and sent it to the two opt-in groups and chose to include the "Cruelty Response opt-out" group in the suppression list. So the problem was that although this constituent was a huge advocacy person, they didn't receive any of the information because the opt-out group was used. We looked into it and their opt-in groups had too much overlap to use in their suppression lists. So going forward the org decided to only target and not suppress.

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Kent Gilliam:
This is really a scenario problem. Some clients may never have this scenario but here is the specifics:

Constituent was in the "Advocacy News Opt-in" grop along with a couple of other interests groups but they were also in the "Cruelty Response Opt-out" group because the images were too graphic.

The email was about legislation that would impact the organizations ability to file charges against animal abusers. So the organization knew this would be important to their advocacy constituents AND their Cruelty Response constituents so they created an email and sent it to the two opt-in groups and chose to include the "Cruelty Response opt-out" group in the suppression list. So the problem was that although this constituent was a huge advocacy person, they didn't receive any of the information because the opt-out group was used. We looked into it and their opt-in groups had too much overlap to use in their suppression lists. So going forward the org decided to only target and not suppress.

Makes sense, though I would argue they are assuming why people opted out and chose to send to them anyhow.

I say I am not interested in Cruelty Resonse. They send me an advocacy email about Animal Abuse (which sounds like a response to cruelty to me.) So here I am getting an email talking about abused cats, which I cannot stand to think about.

I've been thinking about this kind of thing as we set up out interests. (Which is very contentous here. The interest list is one of the big reasons we are delayed in migrating. Politics!)

We aren't even sending anything yet, and I already hear...

"Well, they sure wouldn't mean to opt-out of THIS email."

"Could we email them to confirm they didn't want emails?"

"But what about when we want to send to EVERYBODY?"

Regards, Brian

Casey Flinn · May 2011

Jan Fischer Bachman:
Thank you! I will try this code. Please let me know regarding the interests thing, as it is causing us problems! We want to be able to have people easily sign up, but with more than 10 different publications, most need to be based on an opt-in -- without necessarily opting OUT of things they are actually "neutral" about.

I appreciate your prompt response!

Jan

Hi everyone. Kent shared this thread with me and asked me to chime in.

The best way to handle this is to describe the desitred experience / functionality.

The below is what i think i hear you all saying...please check it out and correct me

1) users can manage their site interests where

- they can see all interests available to them

- they can see those for which they are opted-in, opted-out, and those where they have made no action\\

2) if a user is opted-in, they receive communications from that interest category

3) if a user is opted-out, they do not receive communications from that interest category

4) if a user has not taken action, they could potentially see emails from this category depending on how the group was selected

5) when a user returns to the site and they are presented with the opportunity to set their status for an interest, the system should not overwrite an existing status unless the user has taken an explicit action to change that status.

Thoughts?

Casey Flinn

Convio Product Management

Brian Mucha · May 2011

Casey Flinn:
Hi everyone. Kent shared this thread with me and asked me to chime in.

The best way to handle this is to describe the desitred experience / functionality.

The below is what i think i hear you all saying...please check it out and correct me

1) users can manage their site interests where

- they can see all interests available to them

- they can see those for which they are opted-in, opted-out, and those where they have made no action\\

2) if a user is opted-in, they receive communications from that interest category

3) if a user is opted-out, they do not receive communications from that interest category

4) if a user has not taken action, they could potentially see emails from this category depending on how the group was selected

5) when a user returns to the site and they are presented with the opportunity to set their status for an interest, the system should not overwrite an existing status unless the user has taken an explicit action to change that status.

Thoughts?

Casey Flinn

Convio Product Management

That seems to cover it for me.

Item 5 was the key to the thread, especially as it relates to surveys.

Jan Fischer Bachman · May 2011

Casey Flinn:
Hi everyone. Kent shared this thread with me and asked me to chime in.

The best way to handle this is to describe the desitred experience / functionality.

The below is what i think i hear you all saying...please check it out and correct me

1) users can manage their site interests where

- they can see all interests available to them

- they can see those for which they are opted-in, opted-out, and those where they have made no action\\

2) if a user is opted-in, they receive communications from that interest category

3) if a user is opted-out, they do not receive communications from that interest category

4) if a user has not taken action, they could potentially see emails from this category depending on how the group was selected

5) when a user returns to the site and they are presented with the opportunity to set their status for an interest, the system should not overwrite an existing status unless the user has taken an explicit action to change that status.

Thoughts?

Casey Flinn

Convio Product Management

Hi Casey!

Our specific examples involve "simple sign-ups" - which are great for getting interested eyeballs on communications, but harder to manage in terms of database. For a simple sign-up, there is no way for a person to see which interests they have already chosen/rejected/taken no action on. They just enter their e-mail address and check publications they want. This has some downfalls - we don't get a name (which can make working with records difficult - we call ours "friend friend" so that they will be "Dear friend" if anyone personalizes!) AND it creates lots of duplicates since we allow multiple records with the same e-mail address.

Of course it is "better" for them to log in and see a list of what they have chosen. But this defeats the purpose of a simple sign-up! Our organization is getting WAY more new subscibers with the simple system than with the previous "you must log in to indicate your interests" scenario.

So the really relevant point is: if someone simply does not check a box, it should not be considered an "opt-out." It would be a little silly to have check boxes for "want this publication" "don't want" "neutral" so I think it makes sense to assume a neutral status unless otherwise indicated.

We had a case today of someone who previously got our main news publication. He signed up for two additional newsletters yesterday. That opted him out of the main news publication. So, does he want it or not? Did he assume that he was already on the list so didn't need to check it again? Or is he tired of news? I e-mailed him to find out. But we really do not have time for a personal connection with every person!

The exact option you mention (not overriding an existing status) only works where multiple profiles with the same e-mail are not allowed. In our case (and many others, I understand), a simple signup will always generate a brand new profile. We merge these in asap, but would like to NOT have the opt-outs to deal with.

Overall, I would say Convio needs to get on board the simple sign-up train, since there is also a problem with overall e-mail opt-in and opt-outs. We shouldn't have to put an opt-in box on a simple e-mail signup since people are signing up because they want to opt in! (We spent a while accidentally having everyone who signs up ending up opted out of all e-mail. Now we have a dumb message about opting in until I have time to put in the code to suppress the box altogether). This is such a basic need that it would be great to have a better option rather than having to insert special code.

Thanks for looking at the issue! I really appreciate the way Convio constantly keeps updating and improving!

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Jan Fischer Bachman:
Hi Casey!

Our specific examples involve "simple sign-ups" - which are great for getting interested eyeballs on communications, but harder to manage in terms of database. For a simple sign-up, there is no way for a person to see which interests they have already chosen/rejected/taken no action on. They just enter their e-mail address and check publications they want. This has some downfalls - we don't get a name (which can make working with records difficult - we call ours "friend friend" so that they will be "Dear friend" if anyone personalizes!) AND it creates lots of duplicates since we allow multiple records with the same e-mail address.

Of course it is "better" for them to log in and see a list of what they have chosen. But this defeats the purpose of a simple sign-up! Our organization is getting WAY more new subscibers with the simple system than with the previous "you must log in to indicate your interests" scenario.

So the really relevant point is: if someone simply does not check a box, it should not be considered an "opt-out." It would be a little silly to have check boxes for "want this publication" "don't want" "neutral" so I think it makes sense to assume a neutral status unless otherwise indicated.

We had a case today of someone who previously got our main news publication. He signed up for two additional newsletters yesterday. That opted him out of the main news publication. So, does he want it or not? Did he assume that he was already on the list so didn't need to check it again? Or is he tired of news? I e-mailed him to find out. But we really do not have time for a personal connection with every person!

The exact option you mention (not overriding an existing status) only works where multiple profiles with the same e-mail are not allowed. In our case (and many others, I understand), a simple signup will always generate a brand new profile. We merge these in asap, but would like to NOT have the opt-outs to deal with.

Overall, I would say Convio needs to get on board the simple sign-up train, since there is also a problem with overall e-mail opt-in and opt-outs. We shouldn't have to put an opt-in box on a simple e-mail signup since people are signing up because they want to opt in! (We spent a while accidentally having everyone who signs up ending up opted out of all e-mail. Now we have a dumb message about opting in until I have time to put in the code to suppress the box altogether). This is such a basic need that it would be great to have a better option rather than having to insert special code.

Thanks for looking at the issue! I really appreciate the way Convio constantly keeps updating and improving!

Jan,

There are actually code snippets you can use instead of embedding a survey that will allow you to not display the opt-in check box. Check out this document: http://community.customer.convio.com/docs/DOC-3255

As for your registration, I took a look at your site and you do ask for a lot of interest opt-ins. I would suggest testing a phased registration approach like what is in this document: http://community.customer.convio.com/docs/DOC-3254

Let me know if you have any questions.

Kent

Shana Masterson · May 2011

Kent Gilliam:
Jan,

There are actually code snippets you can use instead of embedding a survey that will allow you to not display the opt-in check box. Check out this document: http://community.customer.convio.com/docs/DOC-3255

As for your registration, I took a look at your site and you do ask for a lot of interest opt-ins. I would suggest testing a phased registration approach like what is in this document: http://community.customer.convio.com/docs/DOC-3254

Let me know if you have any questions.

Kent

Just to confirm: If I have a survey with a hidden interest update (for example, in my site wrapper we have an eNews sign up form, with a hidden interest update for enews), does that also mean that they are being opted into eNews, but opted out of everything else?

After the initial first, last, email survey, people are taken to another survey with all of the interests listed out where they can choose other options. Some fill this form out, but many do not, and either way people are being opted out of things they didn't intend to opt out of, unless they fill out the first form and then check off every interest box on the second form.

Thanks, Casey and Kent for helping us through this!

Shana

Kent Gilliam · May 2011

Shana Masterson:
Just to confirm: If I have a survey with a hidden interest update (for example, in my site wrapper we have an eNews sign up form, with a hidden interest update for enews), does that also mean that they are being opted into eNews, but opted out of everything else?

After the initial first, last, email survey, people are taken to another survey with all of the interests listed out where they can choose other options. Some fill this form out, but many do not, and either way people are being opted out of things they didn't intend to opt out of, unless they fill out the first form and then check off every interest box on the second form.

Thanks, Casey and Kent for helping us through this!

Shana

Shana,

Here are your answers:

Just to confirm: If I have a survey with a hidden interest update (for example, in my site wrapper we have an eNews sign up form, with a hidden interest update for enews), does that also mean that they are being opted into eNews, but opted out of everything else? It certainly sounds like that is the case, which again is a horrible rationale for Convio to use when determining opt outs.

No. That's not the case here. This is only happening when multiple interest opt-ins are being presented and not being checked. So if you are not presenting the other options in your sign-up form it is not opting anyone out of your other interests.

After the initial first, last, email survey, people are taken to another survey with all of the interests listed out where they can choose other options. Some fill this form out, but many do not, and either way people are being opted out of things they didn't intend to opt out of, unless they fill out the first form and then check off every interest box on the second form.

In your statement, "either way people are being opted out" is not correct. Change would only happen if a constituent provided into on the follow-up form and the consituent clicked "submit". If they do not mess with the form then there is no change to someone who just opted in to your enews group on the homepage form. In your case, after completing the survey/form on the homepage with the hidden enews opt-in and being redirected to the follow-up form, if the person provides additional information but does not select the "Enews' opt-in again then it would opt the person out of the "enews opt-in" group. Just to be clear, it does NOT put the person in the "opt-out" interest group. It simply puts them in the neutral state.

Casey will have to answer any questions about changing this.

Kent

Simple sign up problems

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